Nina LaCour Savors the Rich Pairing of Beauty and Sadness

Note: Text has been edited and does not match audio exactly.

Katie O'Connor: Hi listeners. I'm Audible Editor Katie O'Connor, and today I'm speaking with Printz Award-wining author Nina LaCour. Nina's latest audiobook, Yerba Buena, marks her adult debut and is an emotional coming-of-age tale about two women, Emily and Sarah, who are fighting against their pasts to shape their own futures while slowly finding their way to each other. Welcome, Nina.

Nina LaCour: Thank you so much. I'm so happy to be here.

KO: I'm so excited to be chatting with you. And as I just mentioned, congratulations. This is your adult debut. Can you talk to me about what it was like writing for an adult audience versus a YA audience?

NL: Yes, yes. It's funny because even though I have published quite a few YA novels before, this was actually the first novel I ever started writing. I was just finishing college and I had this idea. I had these characters who came to me. I started writing, and I always write out of order, so I just started writing little notes and snippets and fragments of scenes, exploring these characters a bit.

I couldn't figure out how to tell the story, or even what the story was. It went through so many different iterations before I was ready to really sit down and see the whole project through. So it became this project that, in between all of my other novels and drafts, I would kind of pull out this file and feel very afraid of what I might find, and reread what I had written.

It was very, very difficult for me to move forward because so many years had passed, and so many years would pass in between times when I would look at these pages. I kind of wouldn't recognize myself as a writer. The person who wrote those fragments a couple years prior wasn't the same person I was, or I was different in my writing. And so, I would always feel kind of stuck when I was looking over it. It took me until 2020 during the shelter-in-place orders to actually start with basically a page-one rewrite and just really reenvision this book, but with these same characters that have lived in my mind since I was in my early 20s.

KO: That's amazing. And it makes so much sense to me to hear that you write out of order, because you also reveal details to your listener out of order. And it is just such a showcase of your talent. You're truly so spectacular at the craft of writing.

I'm curious how you keep yourself organized and keep yourself on track to reveal those details, knowing that, "Oh, wait, I haven't done that yet." Or, "I'm going to hold on to this piece." Can you talk to me about your organization there, once everything does come together?

NL: I find that a big part of my writing process is that I crave some type of order and plan, and then at some point, I have to remind myself to let that go and just completely give myself into intuition and trust the creative process. It's less a meticulous placement of details and more of an intuitive exploration of a world. It's so difficult for me to just trust that I'm going to figure it out. But that's always when it ends up coming together.

"I'm hoping that people will see facets of their own lives, their own experiences, shown on the page and put into words, and feel less alone."

And then when I do finally piece together a draft, I have to read it with a more analytical eye, see when the information is being revealed, and make changes accordingly. But I find that by actually just doing it in this intuitive way with no rhyme or reason or order I can discern ends up working.

KO: Yes. I think after so many excellent novels, it's okay to trust the process, right? I think the end result has been beautiful every time.

So Emily, and Sarah in particular, experience some brutal traumas in their youth. You start Yerba Buena by showing us the women as teenagers, as they endure these tragic events. And it can be hard, as a listener, to experience that alongside them, but it does shape who they become as adults. Can you talk through why you chose to open the novel this way with them as teenagers, as opposed to showing these events through flashback or through memories when they are older?

NL: Yeah. I experimented with all different types of structures. And what I finally came to was that at its heart, I see this as a book about how individual people are given a set of life events and circumstances when they're young, and then as they enter adulthood and have the first decade or so of being an adult, being out in the world on one's own, they need to figure out how much of their current trajectory is going to be defined by their past experiences. And how to recognize the coping mechanisms that they have used because they needed to survive the circumstances that they came from. And when it's time to let those go, and when it's time to just rid ourselves of the self-protective tendencies that we all have as adults, I think only then can we really fully love another person well, and let that person see us well. That's what I felt the book was about as I was writing.

I was very excited to get to delve into adulthood and to be able to see what happens to a character past the age of 18, which I haven't explored in a book before. And so part of me resisted starting it in those teen years, because I really was excited to do something new. But I found, the more that I worked through the book, that beginning with those really formative elements in their teen years made the most sense, even though they are hard to read. Their lives get better and better, with some dips. But it's a good trajectory. They start with a lot of hard stuff and then they climb their way out and they create these beautiful lives for themselves. I wanted to show that arc in chronological time.

KO: I love it. Yes. I think the payoff is definitely there, right? They just have these remarkable journeys that as a listener you get so invested in watching their growth, and I think, to your point, there are dips, but that payoff continues to come along the way as they learn more about who they are, separate from how they started.

In another first for you, both Emily and Sarah are written in the third person. Why did you choose to write this story in third person versus first person, or even a third- and first-person split, like how you did in We Are Okay?

NL: This was another of the big craft questions, and actually, it was the biggest challenge for me to write in third person. I considered everything, but it just is what felt right to me for the story. I think that maybe because I do see a bit of an element of fate to it, I wanted to look at them from a third-person perspective in order to intensify that a little bit more, or to signal to a reader possibly that we're seeing them through these difficult times, but there is someone, you know, pulling the puppet strings.

It is a story where intentionally they will come together and we will see their stories intersect. It takes a while for them to intersect. We follow them on their own for a while at first. And I think I felt that if it was first person, it might feel a little bit too disjointed to go from character to character and so into their separate lives that have very little overlap for a while. So I thought maybe the third person would be more cohesive.

The other thing that I'm remembering is that setting, to me, is so important in these stories. And it's a different feeling to be inside a character's body and only seeing through their eyes than it is to have a third-person narrative voice where I can pull out and see more of the world. In the very, very beginning, there's a part where Sarah is in the woods with her girlfriend, Annie, and there's a line that says something to the effect of, “They were small and safe in the woods.” That's not a line that you would say in the first person, like, “I'm small and safe in the woods.” But I feel like from that narrative distance you can look at them in the woods and know that they are safe and say that with some authority.

KO: Yes. It definitely worked well with setting, and also all of the beautiful sensory detail that you include in this novel. It was such a complement to the listening experience. The complex meals, the flavor combinations, the cocktails, the elaborate floral arrangements. Can you tell us about how those combinations came to you?

NL: Yes. This is one of those pandemic things where I was writing it in the front room of my San Francisco apartment. We had actually just moved in, my wife and daughter and I, to our place three days before the shelter-in-place orders came down in San Francisco. So we were thrust into this new place. We had boxes around. We had planned to remodel but didn't because of COVID. Things were kind of torn up and in disarray. It was a hard place to be stuck in for so long.

And so I was sitting in this little front room and imagining escaping through my book, that I was in beautiful restaurants, that I was having these gorgeously prepared meals. We actually had no kitchen at the time, because we had torn it out. So for six months we cooked everything in a toaster oven and on a hot plate. And in the meantime I'm describing these exquisite restaurant meals, and these gorgeous flowers. It was part escapism for sure.

But also, it's just part of what I'm drawn to. I love beautiful things. Whether it's a redwood forest, or a perfectly arranged floral arrangement, or a cocktail, or a plate of food, or wallpaper, I just find so much pleasure in these beautiful parts of life. I also tend to write pretty sad books. I write books where sad things happen. People are going through difficult experiences. And I think that the two pair so well because when we are in grief, or when we are afraid or lost, I do think we can find comfort in some of these very tangible, visual beautiful things. It's just what life is made of, right? The most beautiful and the most painful and hard. I like to use both of those to full effect in my books.

KO: And I will say, listeners, there is a gorgeous green tile behind Nina, which reminds me of the green that Emily is using in her home remodel of the mansion. So I'm at least getting to see the natural inspiration for some of the beautiful sensory work that happens in Yerba Buena.

NL: Oh, thank you. They're the original fireplace of this turn-of-the-century duplex that we live in. I'm sure that they were a source of inspiration for that tile. I wrote that in this very room, sitting right here.

KO: There you go. You've worked with some fantastic narrators: Emma Galvin, Jorjeana Marie, Robbie Daymond, and now Julia Whelan, who delivers a beautiful and emotional performance for Yerba Buena. What was it like getting to work with Julia and with your other narrators to bring your words to life?

NL: It's been incredible. I rarely reread my books on paper, but getting to listen to the audio versions is such a gift because it removes me a little bit from my own text, because it's so much about their performances. I just love it.

Julia Whelan did such an incredible job. When I started listening to the book, just the intensity with which she reads it, and the power, I just felt like she gives it this whole new level. I love it so much. Her character voices are so subtle and so good. She asked me some questions—I was excited to be able to text back and forth a little bit—but we agreed immediately on, for example, the grandmother's from New Orleans, which is based on my own grandmother. We talked a little bit about the accents, and, I mean, Julia just did it perfectly. She was like, "I'm thinking very subtle." And there it was, it was Clare’s voice, so beautiful. And she just did a wonderful job.

"The best thing that we can all do for ourselves is understand that our greatest gift as a writer is that we can distill the way that we see and experience the world into the story that we are giving other people."

I've had such an amazing experience working with Jorjeana Marie, too, on several of my audiobooks. And we've gotten to present together at conferences. I love her too. Both of them are just such talented artists and writers themselves, and of course, actors. It's so cool. I'm a huge fan of the audio medium.

KO: Yeah. I think that's interesting about how you do get to remove [yourself], almost pretending like you're not the author, right? When you get to listen to them have their own spin on this world and get to just enjoy it for the performance element.

NL: Definitely. Yeah, it's really fun. I was listening to the Yerba Buena audiobook on a drive, and it just felt like I was being told this story. And I was like, "Oh, wow. She makes my writing sound so good." At moments I was like, "Oh, that's so good." It’s in huge part her delivery, because when I read on a page I'm incredibly self-critical. So I'm very grateful to Julia for doing such a beautiful job.

KO: Now when you're writing, just put Julia, put Jorjeana in your head and then, you know, [you’ll be] a little less self-critical along the way, maybe.

NL: Yes.

KO: What do you hope listeners take away from Yerba Buena?

NL: You know, I rarely write with a goal like that. But I think that there is so much to be gained from hearing experiences that somehow reflect one's own perception of life. There are big traumas in this novel, but there are also small moments that are kind of heartbreaking or life giving. There's a big range of experience, and that's what I was trying to capture. Like, how a huge, catastrophic event can break your heart, but also a tiny sentence can break your heart. Or a huge declaration of love can make life feel meaningful, and so can a tiny glass of Lillet poured for you when you're signing the lease to your first apartment, or getting the keys.

And so I'm hoping that people will see facets of their own lives, their own experiences, shown on the page and put into words, and feel less alone. That's really what I try to do in my work, because as a reader, that's what I'm drawn to. When somebody can capture an experience that makes me feel seen and part of a broader human experience. That's why I read, to feel that way. And also, to hear a good story. I hope that people also find it to be a good compelling story that they want to keep listening to.

KO: Yes, I barely paused myself as I was listening. And I will echo that and say, as a listener, I do get a great deal of catharsis from your audiobooks, and to your point, seeing yourself in those moments and also helping to make sense of some of the things that you have gone through personally, that you're seeing reflected in these characters. I think you really get at the heart of what people are going through but may not necessarily talk about or want to discuss with everyone in their lives.

NL: Yeah. These issues touch all of us, some to much closer degrees than others. We all know people who struggle with addiction, or struggle with addiction ourselves. We all know what it's like to lose somebody to death, regardless of the cause. We all know what it's like to not be able to fully communicate with somebody, and have this misunderstanding that has a huge ripple effect. So much of experience is shared. It really means a lot to me that people can bring their own experiences to my work, and that my work can sometimes help them through whatever it is that they are struggling with or thinking about.

KO: Well, not only are you an accomplished author, but you're also a professor. What is the number-one piece of advice that you like to give to your students?

NL: When writing, it's very easy to fall into this self-doubt trap and to tell yourself, like, "Oh, this story has been done before. This isn't new. Who wants to read about this boring thing?" And so on. The best thing that we can all do for ourselves is understand that our greatest gift as a writer is that we can distill the way that we see and experience the world into the story that we are giving other people. And, yes, all of our stories have been done before, and none of our stories will be for everyone, and so taking those concerns off the table to begin really can help us to say, "What is the story that's most important to me to tell right now? How can I tell it in a way that is so specific to the way that I work?"

I'll use an example from my book We Are Okay to illustrate this, which is that when I was writing We Are Okay, I kept being fixated on these two yellow bowls that my character Marin has and uses. And I kept telling myself, like, "Nobody's going to care about these bowls. Why do you keep using these bowls?" But, I just, I did. I could tell they were important to her. She used them for every meal, she washes them, she sets them up on her little dorm shelf, or desk, or whatever.

And then after the book came out, so many people will say when they're talking about my book, "Oh, I loved those yellow bowls." It surprised me, and now I've heard it so many times that people love the yellow bowls. It's so simple, they serve no plot purpose in the book, they're just these objects. But it was just, I trusted myself to leave it in because they were important to me, and then they became important to the reader too.

So, just to not second-guess yourself as much as you can, and just let it get onto the page. Trust that the way that you experience the world and the way that you want your characters to experience the world will mean something to other people, even though it's easier to doubt what you're doing.

KO: That's great advice. I'm going to pocket that for myself too. So what's next for you?

NL: Well, I have been busy. I can't go into any specifics, but there is some exciting Yerba Buena TV project news. So I have been hard at work on that. And I have also been writing a series for younger readers that's coming out with Chronicle Books, called The Apartment House on Poppy Hill. I just had a picture book come out, called Mama and Mommy and Me in the Middle. And I have another picture book coming out with Candlewick next year, and I'm working very hard on a YA novel and an adult novel.

I have a lot, a lot happening; a lot of book projects, which is great. I feel so fortunate that I get to do this thing that I love. I love writing across age designations now. It makes me really happy to be able to jump around and to be able to get into, you know, big, heavy adult stuff, and also just sweet lighthearted child stuff, and everything in between. I feel really fortunate to be able to do this thing that I love to do, and do so much of it.

KO: That's amazing. And we're fortunate as listeners that we all get to keep enjoying it with so much more to come down the line. That's really exciting. Congratulations.

NL: Thank you.

KO: And I love the title of that series. I can't wait to check it out.

NL: Thank you. I'm really, really excited about it. It's illustrated by Joana Avillez and it's just going to be so, so fun.

KO: That's great. Thank you so much for joining us today, Nina. I really appreciate it.

NL: Thank you so much for having me, Katie. It was so delightful and I'm so excited for people to hear Julia Whelan's narration.

KO: Yes. Listeners, you can get Yerba Buena right now on Audible.